Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sandy Hook Elementary School
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was procedural close with no prejudice against speedy renomination, given the initial proposal was for the elementary school and the article is now on the school district. (non-admin closure) KTC (talk) 11:59, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Newtown Public Schools (neé Sandy Hook Elementary School)[edit]
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This article was created today, Prodded, converted to a redirect, restored, then converted to a redirect (which is creating circular redirects). It was prodded due to notability. I've restored the page as an article, and listed it here for AFD discussion.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to
the article about the tragedy, or alternativelythe school district for the school. We don't typically have pages for elementary and middle schools, but obviously this is a search term now, so redirect it as we do all other non-highschools. Shadowjams (talk) 01:32, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply] - Since I started this, I may as well give my opinion as well. I think that it's going to be tough to make the case that this school is not notable, now. The simple fact that every news organization in the world has talked about the school all day today, and likely for a good long while to come (yea, yea, I know that's "crystal ball-ing", but its a pretty realistic assumption), gives the school itself a good amount of notability. So, I'd say "Keep", but... I have to admit that I don't really care that much either way.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]- Well, I think there's a big difference between every news organization referencing it specifically, and every news organization referencing it by virtue of the tragedy. The latter is what's happening, and I think our notability criteria's pretty clear about how to deal with that sort of situation. Not to mention we have a lot of experience dealing with 1BLP events that approximate things like this. The Westside Middle School massacre comes the closest to this that I can think of offhand, and in that case the Middle school redirects to the district. I suppose that'd also work here as well,
although I think the more salient example is probably the tragedy. Shadowjams (talk) 01:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]- Actually, redirecting to the school district would be perfectly acceptable to me, in fact, maybe even preferable. Reason being, there's no need to forever tie the school to the massacre, it's first and foremost a school, and so it should redirect to the district, as we do with virtually every (I'd estimate over 99% of all) grade school and middle school. I think there's no compelling reason though for a keep, I think it's a question of where the redirect should be. Shadowjams (talk) 01:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Somehow, I don't think that the incident will ever be separable from the school itself. You can clean up the blood stains, but no one will ever be able to take those memories away from the kids, parents, and staff there, or from the rest of us for that matter. Suggesting that Wikipedia should not "tie the school to the massacre" is... I don't know. Egotistical and naive, at the very least. Wikipedia isn't the center of the universe, and nothing that anyone does or says here can separate the school from the event that happened there today.
All that being said, I wouldn't mind if this page about this school is redirected to the page about the district (is there one? It's not really a problem to me if either this page or the district are red links, but that seems to drive some people nuts, so I feel as though I have to ask...). I don't think that an article about the school itself is particularly important, but it'll be an uphill battle to keep it from existing at this point. It's fairly easy to point to Columbine High School, with the obvious conclusion being that this schools page is comparable.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:13, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Somehow, I don't think that the incident will ever be separable from the school itself. You can clean up the blood stains, but no one will ever be able to take those memories away from the kids, parents, and staff there, or from the rest of us for that matter. Suggesting that Wikipedia should not "tie the school to the massacre" is... I don't know. Egotistical and naive, at the very least. Wikipedia isn't the center of the universe, and nothing that anyone does or says here can separate the school from the event that happened there today.
- Actually, redirecting to the school district would be perfectly acceptable to me, in fact, maybe even preferable. Reason being, there's no need to forever tie the school to the massacre, it's first and foremost a school, and so it should redirect to the district, as we do with virtually every (I'd estimate over 99% of all) grade school and middle school. I think there's no compelling reason though for a keep, I think it's a question of where the redirect should be. Shadowjams (talk) 01:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I think there's a big difference between every news organization referencing it specifically, and every news organization referencing it by virtue of the tragedy. The latter is what's happening, and I think our notability criteria's pretty clear about how to deal with that sort of situation. Not to mention we have a lot of experience dealing with 1BLP events that approximate things like this. The Westside Middle School massacre comes the closest to this that I can think of offhand, and in that case the Middle school redirects to the district. I suppose that'd also work here as well,
- Redirect: No brainer. Elementary schools are rarely notable, and a 1E situation doesn't require a separate article on the school.--Milowent • hasspoken 02:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect 1E that is best covered in the specific article on that 1 event. Outside of the 1E, there is no question it would be redirected, so there is your answer. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:56, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There should be an article covering the event, and that article, in my opinion, should also cover the school itself; it may be interesting to the reader to not only find information about the notable event, but also the location of the notable event. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and expand: this school is going to meet WP:N simply because it was the site of something that is probably going to be painted as the worst school shooting since Virgina Tech. If, despite all the coverage, the school itself doesn't manage to meet WP:N, then move the article to Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]- Changing to Merge with shooting article, and redirect (not that there's much to merge). PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- A location doesn't become notable merely because something notable happens there. Weak arguments are weak, don't waste our time, please.. Tarc (talk) 03:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, there is already an impressive article on the shooting, and this is a one sentence thing hardly worth keeping around. (Note to self, don't edit Wikipedia when tired). PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- A location doesn't become notable merely because something notable happens there. Weak arguments are weak, don't waste our time, please.. Tarc (talk) 03:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to the shooting article. It is patently obvious that the school is only ever going to be known for the shooting, and having an article on it will not help readers understand it in any way. Think about it; an elementary school has a building with an address, a principal, and some number x of students. All that information is in the shooting article. Abductive (reasoning) 03:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It is patently obvious that the school is only ever going to be Then next year the school in question gets recognized as a Blue Ribbon School and instantly becomes "notable". Or it becomes known that the school contains a top secret bunker where the government houses the remains of aliens from outer space. WP:CRYSTAL? PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect - Notability is not inherited; absent this event, it is just one of a thousands similar elementary schools. Tarc (talk) 03:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect... to what, exactly? I bring this up not because I either agree or disagree, but to make the point that it shouldn't be redirected to the shooting incident page simply because that will end up creating several double redirects.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]- The double redirects can be fixed. People interested in the shooting may search for this school, and that's the entire point of redirects. If this doesn't redirect to the shooting page, then it should redirect to the school district or town's page. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 03:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect... to what, exactly? I bring this up not because I either agree or disagree, but to make the point that it shouldn't be redirected to the shooting incident page simply because that will end up creating several double redirects.
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 03:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Connecticut-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 03:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 03:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The schools debate has been had long since, and the compromise (reached and consolidated somewhere around 2006 if memory serves) was to have the names of the schools redirect to the school district. See Project:Schools, Project:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes, and the hundreds if not thousands of past AFD and other discussions about this since approximately 2004. That's done in this case by simple use of the edit and rename tools, no administrator deletion tool necessary. As Milowent said, this is a no brainer. Any of you could have just done this, without bringing it to AFD. Don't throw all of the knowledge of how we've generally handled things for six years out of the window just because of news reporting. Uncle G (talk) 06:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per above. If we're now deleting school district articles, leaving us with absolutely no relevant target for a redirect from a school (a locality provides very little scope for content on educational organisations), then we're going too far. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 11:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.